Human Rights: An Engine for Social Change

Segment 1: Human Rights Education Associates. Our guest on this edition of The Doug Noll Show is Dr. Felisa Tibbitts, Fellow at the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy and founder of Human Rights Education Associates (HREA), an internationally recognized organization dedicated to human rights education. When Felisa was still a graduate student the Berlin Wall came down, and she decided to go study the implications of this event in Europe. Dr. Tibbitts found herself hired by a Dutch Helsinki human rights group and ended up devoting herself to the work of human rights for the next 20 years. She has worked in human rights education in over 20 countries, including Croatia, Gaza, Romania, Ukraine and the United States.

Segment 2: Universal Declaration for Human Rights. The Universal Declaration for Human Rights (UDHR) was written by the United Nations and passed in 1948. It is not a well-known declaration. The verbiage “human rights” didn’t come into our vernacular until after WWII. The UDHR is a beautiful document that includes civil and political rights as well as social, economic and cultural rights. Felisa says on one hand the human rights system includes legally binding treaties, but on the other hand it’s also a value system. The heart of human rights is simply human dignity. What does it mean to enjoy your human dignity? And what are the conditions that help to bring that about?

Segment 3: Sovereignty and Natural Law. Regarding sovereignty, Dr. Tibbitts says the questions we need to ask ourselves are: Under what conditions do we justify humanitarian intervention? And how long is the sovereignty going to last? If you think about human rights as a manifestation of social change, we’re not restricted exclusively to having to change laws. Yes, governments are responsible for ensuring the human rights of all those on their territory, but if you think more broadly about social change, those processes are not defined by government involvement. So to what degree does the Western Euro-centric view of human rights have to impose values and beliefs on a culture that does not want to accept them? The philosophy of human rights is that we possess human rights even if they are not reflected in the laws or the practices of our country. This is called Natural Law and it comes from the West.  

Segment 4: It’s a Vision. The United Nations, in promoting human rights, decreed that all human rights are universal, interrelated and indivisible. Dr. Tibbitts reminds us that every culture has values that are at least partially reflected in the human rights framework. Societies do this naturally. Ultimately, in order for you and I to feel that the specific language of human rights rings true for us, we’ve got to break it down. We need to look at it, critique it, internalize it. Human rights is a vision. It’s a utopia and an engine for social change. It requires patience, persistence and introspection.

To listen to the entire interview:

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

A Climb for Peace

Segment 1: Peace, Teamwork and Cultural Understanding. Our guest on this edition of The Doug Noll Show is Lance Trumbull, founder and executive director of the Everest Peace Project. The Everest Peace Project is a peace organization that consists of individuals from a diverse set of cultural backgrounds and faiths who have come together to promote peace, teamwork and cultural understanding. Their climb to the summit of Mount Everest was a global group effort that touched and inspired millions across the globe.

Segment 2: A Vision of a “Peace Climb”. Lance first had the vision of a “peace climb” while on a trek in India. His vision included Muslims, Jews, and Christians coming together to climb the highest summit on earth to promote peace. After his vision in India, he became a man on a mission. He went back to Katmandu and immediately started planning the peace project. Lance began by creating the infrastructure, making connections, creating a website, and planning the general trip. It took a few years to find the right climbers. They had to have climbing experience and they also had to be people of all different faiths and ethnicities and backgrounds. Then he went to work getting the funding, which was difficult. Their main sponsor was Panasonic and the cost was in the hundreds of thousands.

Segment 3: The Mission. Lance’s mission was always quite clear: he wanted to promote peace, friendship, and teamwork while overcoming obstacles in the face of danger and great difficulty. To find out more about the mission and vision of the Everest Peace Project, visit http://www.everestpeaceproject.org/.

Segment 4: Actions of Peace. May 18th, 2006, ten people from the Everest Peace Project successfully summited Everest. One person – the African teammate - collapsed near the summit. The next 36 hours were spent getting him back down the mountain safely. The climb was professionally filmed, but once they were done with the climb Lance still needed to find funding for the film in order to get it released. He was able to land Orlando Bloom as the narrator and have Dalai Lama endorse it. Lance believes that “it’s through actions of peace that peace is spread.” The Everest Peace Project was a large action of peace, but you don’t have to climb a mountain to promote peace. You just need to do something. It can be something small, but you have to do something.

To listen to the entire interview:

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

The Olive Tree Initiative: Educating Students about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Segment 1: A Multi-Faith, Multi-Cultural Student Group. Our guest on this edition of The Doug Noll Show is Shannon Thomas, Berkeley Delegate and founding president of Olive Tree Initiative in Berkeley. Olive Tree Initiative (OTI) is a diplomatic and educational program that’s goal is to educate students about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The group is comprised of multi-faith, multi-cultural students from various backgrounds coming together to reach a more holistic understanding of the conflict.

Shannon, raised in a global family and community, came to Berkeley knowing that she wanted to focus her degree on the Middle East. She felt called from an early age to pursue something that would make a tangible difference in the world. Part of that goal was realized last summer when she had the unique pleasure of traveling with 40+ peacemaking students via OTI to Isreal and the West Bank. Shannon stresses that you can’t truly understand the conflict until you experience it for yourself, in person. With OTI she was able to explore personal lives and narratives. She found there was a clear disconnect between the political rhetoric and the personal side of the conflict.

Segment 2: Peace First. Shannon says (all opinions are her own) that the top priority of all the policy makers in the Israeli region needs to be PEACE FIRST instead of personal goals and national interests. She thinks one thing that is overemphasized in the media is the intractability of this conflict. Of course there are clear issues are around water, which territories are included, and Jerusalem. However, the technical issues have been worked out and the outline is already there. What they need now are politicians who can pull it together and have the courage to follow through with open dialogue and peace building at the forefront.

Segment 3: Reflection and Transformation.The word Shannon uses to describe her trip to Israel and the West Bank is transformative. However, it was also very difficult, as the students were in a constant state of cognitive dissent. They had different opinions and different narratives thrown at them daily. Their own beliefs were constantly challenged. It was tiring physically, emotionally and mentally. One of the most meaningful outcomes was recognizing that this was not just a conflict to be studied on paper; it is a human conflict. At the end of each day they engaged in a reflective discussion about what they experienced during the day. Reflection was where they tied everything together, academically and personally. Sometimes it was difficult to find common ground, but being forced to actively listen and respect other people’s opinions and viewpoints was really an amazing growth experience for someone trying to grapple with the multiple dimensions of this conflict.

Segment 4: Person-to-Person. Shannon knows the most immediate and effective means of resolving conflict is usually person to person. There are many different directions she can go with her career, whether it’s on the ground or higher up in an organization. This summer Shannon is honored to lead another OTI group to Israel and the West Bank, and she wants to keep the Israeli-Palestinian conflict on the top of her career agenda.

To listen to the entire interview:

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

Demystifying Teen Anger

Segment 1: LifeWorks Counseling. Our guests on this edition of The Doug Noll Show are the founders and staff of LifeWorks Counseling, LLC. http://www.lifeworksnj.com/. LifeWorks was started 2 years ago by Ingrid Burke and Gina Unger, as a response to an increased need to help teens with anger issues. Their goal is to help kids resolve issues in more compassionate, constructive ways. When teens’ boundaries get crossed there is usually one of two reactions: extreme anger or withdrawing from friends, family and peers. At LifeWorks, they start by prioritizing the issues. They make sure the basics, like food and shelter, are covered, then the go on to discuss and teach self-actualization, which brings about a better quality of life. This process is called Strength-Based Counseling. 

Ingrid is quick to point out that anger is an important, fundamental emotion. It’s a response to boundary violation and it’s a natural feeling. It’s a defense response, and historically we need it when we feel threatened and need to take action.

Segment 2: Causes of Teen Angst.The staff at LifeWorks often gets contacted by guidance counselors or principals. LifeWorks starts by introducing themselves, acknowledging that the child might not be happy to be there, and then suggests working on the issues together to forge a sense of trust. The LifeWorks counselors believe the increase in teen anger stems from a number of different factors: family stress such as finances, an increase of single-parent families with have limited income and time, and a breakdown of the family unit are some of the causes.

LifeWorks facilitates teen groups. The counselors start by teaching the kids the ways in which they think: Constructive vs. Limited. Then they move on to brain education. If they know how the brain works, they will be more interested and better equipped to make changes in their behavior.

Segment 3: Demystifying the Anger Response. It’s important to look at anger triggers and automatic responses, and teach the kids to develop different responses and choices. The kids are invited to map out the thought process, slow it down, ask themselves what the underlying issue is. Once the kids are able to understand their thought process, it demystifies things and they realize that there are physiological and biological reasons behind what they are experiencing. Once they understand something, they gain the ability to change and control it.

Segment 4: Family Support is Crucial. Incorporating families is important to the healing process. When a parent just drops off a kid to a group and leaves, it gives the impression that “this is the identified patient, that this is the offender, this is the problem.” However, the child is a reflection of the issues that are going on in the home. Parents need to take responsibility and be part of the solution. A lot of time the child is acting out because they want attention from their parents or from their peers. Open communication is also a big piece.

To listen to the entire interview:

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

Conflict Unplugged

Segment 1: Why Don’t We Try Cooperation?

Our guest on this edition of The Doug Noll Show is up-and-coming young peacemaker Jesse Treakle, founder and director of the organization Conflict Unplugged. Jesse is based in San Diego and is currently finishing up his PhD in Conflict Resolution. When asked about his personal journey as a peacemaker, Jesse remembers at the age of five settling a conflict between two cousins. They were arguing over who was going to climb the ladder of a hen house first, and as the story goes, Jesse asked them, “Why don’t we try cooperation?” In 2000 as a member of AmeriCorps, Jesse had his first official mediation training seminar and walked out of the event a changed man. The skills spoke to him and he knew they would speak to others. He then spent a year in Switzerland studying peacemaking and pursued a Master’s degree in conflict resolution.

 

Segment 2: Teach the Children.

Eventually Jesse ended up in United Arab Emirates teaching English and conflict resolution to school kids. He had no idea the response to his first after-school program would be so huge. The school kids came each week and learned conflict resolution techniques and skills, which was completely new terrain to them. It was a very powerful experience, for Jesse as well as the students.

 

Segment 3: Conflict Unplugged.

Jesse tell us that he set up his peacemaking organization, Conflict Unplugged, on two simple ideas:

1) Conflict is not synonymous with disagreement. Often we think if we get into a disagreement we automatically get into a conflict. Instead, we need to ask ourselves, “What triggers lead us into conflict and how can we catch ourselves before we go down that road?”

2) It’s important to create a clear definition of conflict and to stress that is it NOT positive and inevitable, but instead, negative and preventable. This change of mindset is not easy and takes effort, but if we want to create a world that is harmonious and break the cycles of violence then we need to get past the idea that we are inevitably driven toward conflict.

 

Segment 4: Study the Instigators.

So how do you teach people to become less reactive to the triggers that cause conflict? The first thing is to separate disagreement and conflict. Then identify and study the instigators: anger and other negative feelings, negative character judgment, and feelings of inferiority or superiority. It’s a process of engaging in reflection. Take the negative emotion and let it be an indicator of what is missing in a relationship (with someone else or even with yourself). This self-reflection calls for a tremendous amount of discipline and system-2 thinking. The most challenging thing to do is to have that new thought pattern become habitual. To read more about Jesse’s crucial work, please visit his website: http://www.conflict-unplugged.com/.>

 

To listen to the entire interview:

 

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish: Wisdom is Stronger than Bombs

Segment 1: Conflict is Caused by Fear.

Our guest on this edition of The Doug Noll Show is the esteemed Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish, a Palestinian medical doctor who has dedicated his life to raising awareness for peace between Israel and Palestine. Dr. Abuelaish is also the founder of Daughters for Life, a foundation established to advance the education and health of girls and women from the Middle East.

 

Dr. Abuelaish believes the Palestinians need to be responsible for their own lives and for their own health and well-being, but the world needs to help them. It’s a mutual responsibility. A lot of conflict is caused by fear. In order to overcome that deep seated fear we need to be open and honest. Most fear comes from misinformation, a psychological barrier or ignorance. It’s easy to hide behind fear, but we must take responsibility to face our fears and learn about other cultures in order to find common ground.

 

Segment 2: No Child is Born a Warrior.

It is fear, ignorance and greed that drive the vast majority of violence and conflict. Humans become habitual in the way they view the world and violence becomes a means to an end. It is difficult to end that cycle. Dr. Abuelaish thinks once we have justice in life, we can attain peace. Once we have the human values we were born with, we have no need for violence. Violence is a disease and must be studied and treated as a disease. This disease is man-made; it is manufactured. No child is born a warrior. The best thing to do, if you want to remove violence and fear, is to change the environment in which children are raised.

 

Segment 3: Wisdom is Stronger than Bombs.

Dr. Abuelaish says it’s time for the international community to step up and tell the Israeli government that its attitude toward the Palestinians is not tolerable and we need to have peace in the region. Any progress in the peace process is for the interest of the world, not just for the Palestinians. It will save the Israelis from their self-destructive behavior. The solution is there; now all it takes is the governments to come together and make it happen. It’s time to start to build some trust. Let the actions speak. It’s time for us to ask, “What world do we want for our children? What legacy do we want them to have? What do we want them to inherit?”

 

Despite unimaginable tragedy, Dr. Abuelaish says he is not a victim. The death of his daughters just strengthened his resolve to work tirelessly for peace and justice and freedom. Anger and violence is a destructive disease to the one who carries it. Wisdom and good deeds are stronger than bullets and bombs.

 

Segment 4: Daughters for Life Foundation.

The Daughters for Life Foundation was established in memory of his daughters. Its goal is to promote education of girls and women from the Middle East --- girls who have the potential but not the resources. The most efficient and effective means for change is to invest in the education of girls and women and to enable them to reach their full potential. The child who is educated will have educated children. With that, Dr. Abuelaish can keep his daughters’ memories alive. To learn more about Dr. Abuelaish and his invaluable work, visit http://www.daughtersforlife.com/.>

  

To listen to the entire interview:

 

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

The Lawyer as Cognitive Counselor

In legal negotiation, your client will have to make the final decision about whether to make a deal or not. As we have seen, human decision-making in the face of great risk and uncertainty is fraught with peril. Our brains simply do not handle statistics, probabilities, or logical thinking very well, especially when under stress, fear, or other emotion.

The job of the lawyer is to not only manage the negotiation so that the best possible outcome can be obtained, but also to help the client overcome the inherent distortions of the human brain so that decisional error is minimized. This is what I mean by cognitive counseling.
Some lawyers shy away from this idea saying that they are not therapists. I think it is important to understand that were not talking about therapy. Therapy involves diagnosis, prescription, and prognosis with the goal of healing injury. Cognitive counseling is more like coaching to help clients make good decisions.

The first step in cognitive counseling is to recognize decisional errors. This will take some practice, but armed with the information he received from you so far, you can see that any type of emotional reaction is potentially the cause of decisional error.

In addition to calling out decisional errors, you can slow the process down. Sometimes getting outside and walking around for a while is a useful way of getting some cognitive rest. Do not allow the process to accelerate so quickly that your client becomes overwhelmed emotionally or cognitively. Frequently, clients will leap ahead to find objections why a certain decision should not be made. As a cognitive counselor, try to maintain the decision-making one step at a time and bring your client back when he or she leaps forward.

In these situations, you will have to make an empathic connection with your client by listening, reading his or her emotional data field, summarizing the essence of what your client is saying, and labeling his or her emotional experience. When your client seems overwhelmed, have your client focus on what is really important. Most lawsuits are not life-changing. Therefore, you can ask questions about what life will look like five and 10 years ahead. Helping your client gain perspective on what is really important can be of crucial importance during the heat of a negotiation.

As I have repeatedly said, take good notes and be sure to memorialize your conversations with your client in a follow-up letter. The problem of the under settled case is growing as negotiation and mediation becomes more of a mainline practice. You will need to keep your client in line by making a written history of what happened.

Cognitive counseling is an iterative process, which means that you will repeat the same things over and over again. Sometimes it will seem like you are spinning your wheels. However, it is your repetition, patience, compassion, and understanding that will be the greatest service to your client. Your client will not remember your brilliant legal analysis. She will remember how you treated her and a very difficult and extreme moment of her life.

Remember, the best way to win the game is to call it yourself.

Better still, change the game completely.

Douglas E. Noll
Mediator, Author, and
California Lawyer 2012 Attorney of the Year
for Pro Bono Service
Creator of Negotiation Mastery for the Legal Pro
A new online course in cutting-edge legal negotiation
legalpronegotiator.com

Taming the Temper Within

Segment 1: Anger is a Normal Human Emotion.

Our guest on this episode of The Doug Noll Show is Nathanial Smith. Nathanial is a professional counselor specializing in anger, depression, anxiety and domestic violence. His is the author of Taming Your Temper, a Workbook for Individuals, Couples and Groups. His website is http://www.nathanielsmithcounselor.com/.

 

Nathanial’s father was in the mental health profession for many years and helped thousands of people, which is ultimately what drew Nathanial to this career. He’d like his legacy to be the same as his father’s: help people get in touch with their emotions and become empowered and courageous enough to address feelings of anger, anxiety and depression. Anger is a normal human emotion, but when it’s applied as a form of aggression and people’s rights are violated, it becomes a problem.

 

So how do you teach people to manage their anger? In his book Taming Your Temper, Nathanial gives exercises to practice control. There are pragmatic ways to communicate and solve conflicts, but it needs to start at a young age. Parents need to sit down with their children and talk about communication and feelings.

 

Segment 2: Emotional Intelligence.

In Nathanial’s experience, men don’t learn to express feelings. It’s important to teach our kids emotional intelligence at an early age so they can become empathic adults. Nathanial is a cognitive coach: he helps people become aware and articulate what they’re feeling and make a choice about how they want to respond in that moment. Once people realize they do have a choice, they become empowered.

 

Segment 3: The Physical Response to Anger.

Nathanial wanted to write a book to help people realize that their anger is manageable. He began putting together a list of tools to help clients during their counseling sessions, and realized after a while that he had enough information to create a workbook. The book is full of exercises and examples that people can use to become emotionally aware. He wanted to give people a way to get help in the privacy of their own home.

 

There is a physical response to anger: your heart rate gets faster, your adrenalin surges, your muscles tense up, your prefrontal cortex shuts down and you look for some sort of a release. With people who are resistant to becoming vulnerable and exploring feelings, Nathanial starts with teaching them the physical response. Once they understand that, he moves into the emotional part. Somatic awareness is one of the first steps of developing emotional intelligence.

 

Segment 4: Fear Shuts Us Down.

Empathy is defined as recognizing the emotions of others. To do this, we need to learn how to be in touch with our own emotions. Fear shuts us down and can devastate our lives. Nathanial finds that once people push through the fear of having to open up and be vulnerable, they bloom and have a fantastic transformation.  

 

To listen to the entire interview:

 

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

Supporting Your Boss in Negotiation

This post is about how to support your boss in negotiation.

As a young lawyer, you may not be in charge of a negotiation but may be asked to be an assistant or second chair. There is quite a bit that you can do to help the principal lawyer prepare for and execute the negotiation. The fact that you lack experience will be made up by the thoroughness of your briefing book. Your primary function is information gathering and synthesis.
While the final negotiation strategy will be developed between the principal attorney and client, to the extent that they are well informed by you, they will be that much better prepared. So your job is to put together the information, distillate, synthesize it, and presented in a way that is immediately usable.

Your secondary function is to provide devil's advocacy. You will want to take the other side and develop its negotiation strategy based on the information you have developed to date. This will, of course, require some research on the other side. Fortunately, as you have probably learned, the explosion of social media sites provides a vast amount of information on people. Spending some time doing this research can give you tidbits of information and insight into who people are, their backgrounds, and their predispositions.

The usual function of young lawyers is to do legal research until you learn more about the other skills of lawyering. That role is no different in negotiation, where you are called upon to do a thorough case analysis. This will include a distillation of the salient facts and an analysis of the law applied to those facts. This is core lawyering with which you should be very familiar.
You will also want to do a comprehensive damage analysis. Again, you will have to start with the basic remedial concepts of damages, understand the claims, and work up various damage scenarios. You may be relying upon experts for some of this information and analysis. Do not be afraid to ask them hard questions and do not be afraid to professional ignorance if damage analysis and numbers are not your thing. It is their job to educate you, not impress you with how smart they are.

Very few lawyers are familiar with decision tree analysis so you can provide a useful addition to your briefing book with a decision tree. You may not be able to build a complex tree, but that is unnecessary. If you do nothing else than assess the probabilities of for trial outcomes, you will be adding value to the briefing book.

The briefing book can be something as short as a 2-3 page memo or a binder with detailed analysis and appendices. The amount of time and effort you put into a briefing book will depend upon the nature and size of the case, the litigation case budget, and your time constraints. You will probably never be asked to produce a negotiation briefing book. However, imagine the surprise of the principal lawyer when you present a detailed briefing book for review. I can pretty much guarantee you that you will create a positive buzz about your competency as young lawyer when you do this. The briefing book should contain all of the elements that we have discussed so far. In addition it should have a blank concession strategy plan that can be filled out by the principal lawyer and the client.

You may find yourself in the interesting position of having to explain a concession strategy to them as most lawyers have no clue what they are. We will be covering concession strategies later on.
In all of this work your primary job is to learn. You will take the information you’re learning in this course and apply it on the job. You will probably see behaviors and strategies that I recommend against. Be very careful not to criticize. Simply make note of what is observed and engage in the kind of reflective practice I discussed at the beginning of this course. What you want to do is learn from mistakes of others rather than adopt those behaviors and strategies as acceptable practice.
 In addition, you will see smart negotiators. Watch them very carefully and learn as much as you can about what makes them so good. Again, having taken this course will give you insight as to why they have become master negotiators.

I cannot emphasize enough how important reflective practice as an associate is. The first five years of law practice are an intense learning experience. You have to find time to step back and reflect upon what you are learning.

•    What works?
•    What does not work?
•    What did you do wrong?
•    What did you do right?
•    What could do better?

If you do not engage in reflective practice, your education will be hit or miss. Just do it.

Remember, the best way to win the game is to call it yourself.

Better still, change the game completely.

Douglas E. Noll
Mediator, Author, and
California Lawyer 2012 Attorney of the Year
for Pro Bono Service
Creator of Negotiation Mastery for the Legal Pro
A new online course in cutting-edge legal negotiation
legalpronegotiator.com

Soha Al-Jurf: Finding Peace as a Palestinian-American Woman

Segment 1: Born In the Occupied West Bank.

Our guest on this edition of The Doug Noll Show is Soha Al-Jurf, a Muslim woman born the occupied West Bank to Palestine parents, and raised in an Arab community in Iowa City. Soha is the author of a new "fictional memoir" Even My Voice Is Silence. Although she is a speech pathologist by profession, her true passion is understanding and communicating the plight of the Palestinians.

 

As a Palestinian-American raised in the USA, Soha’s mother made sure she was intimately connected to her heritage. For as long as she can remember, Soha has always been trying to find ways to relate to her heritage culturally and as an activist.

 

Segment 2: Peace Starts by Humanizing Each Other.

Soha was raised in Iowa, but travelled back to Palestine in 2004-2005 and again in 2009. She also spent summers there as a kid. She believes the current Palestinian conflict has been a difficult conflict to get resolved because there are many layers, and the fact that much of politics today is fraught with deep self-interests. No solution is going to be achieved by putting our faith and trust in government heads who we think will suddenly become less self-interested and more altruistic. In order for the Israeli-Palestinian issue to be resolved, enough of a critical mass must stand up and say “no, we’re not going to take it anymore.” Peace starts by humanizing one another and finding basic common ground. That’s the only way a shift will happen.

 

Segment 3: Find Peace Within.

Soha says we need to find a balance between the non-violent, passive approach and the ultra-violent extremists. She believes the only way for things to change is for people to take conscious responsibility for their own self-awareness and self-evolution, and aim toward a higher consciousness. To reach genuine peace, we need to step back and ask, “What’s my role in the world? How can I shift my own consciousness to heal what is broken in me and in my community?”  We must deal with the trauma within ourselves and find peace within ourselves before we can deal with external violence.

 

Segment 4: We Can’t Source-Check Scripture.

Religion is different than spirituality. What we find in many conflicts is that religion is a very important identity driver. People start to identify themselves and justify themselves through a narrow view of what they believe in religiously. In terms of Palestinian society, certainly the society is religious, and much of the Arab Muslim world has become more religious in recent years. The zealots on the other side are the Orthodox Jews, who are making the claim that God promised the land to the Jews. Unfortunately, scripture has descended from a source with which we can’t communicate. We can’t source-check the scripture.

 

To listen to the entire interview:

 

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4