dougnoll’s posthaven

Segment 1: IARP.org.  On this edition of The Doug Noll Show we review the recent history of Iraq and speak with Iraqi peace activist Sami Rasouli. Sami is Executive Director of the Muslim Peacemakers Team, which is part of Iraqi and American Reconciliation Project (www.reconciliationproject.org), a nonprofit organization that works to rebuild what war and occupation has destroyed. 

On September 12^th, 2001, Sami was scared and confused and did not want to go to work, or even out in public. He tells us that once it was learned that a group of Muslims were responsible for the attack of 9/11, every Muslim was affected negatively. At that moment he felt self-hatred for being a Muslim. However, his family forced him to go to work and face his fears.

Segment 2: Healing from 9/11.  When Sami was at work, two Jewish women came in to see him and talk to him about what happened. He was offered a safe-haven --- a place to hide and heal. Sami and these two women shared food, hopes, dreams, and tears on that day. They brainstormed about how to heal from 9/11. They decided to form a dialogue organization to bring together families of all races, religions and nationalities. They do not talk about politics or religion; they only socialize and have a good time together. Kids are encouraged to attend. At the moment the idea for the organization was created Sami says he felt an inner peace, and something inside him woke up and started paying attention.

Segment 3: The Attraction to Violence.  Doug believes there are a lot of people who are attracted to violence because they don’t have any choice. They perceive threats to their existence. In some areas, where there is a poor education system, the women are oppressed, and there is deep poverty and no hope, they turn to violence. They see a Western lifestyle that is affluent compared to their lifestyle, and it scares them. Their identity and existence are being threatened, and it angers them. As a result of this fear and anger, young men who have no hope are driven to violence.

Segment 4: The Division of Iraq.  Prospects for Iraq: Sami thinks one of the important objectives of the invasion of 2003 by the U.S. was dividing Iraq into three pieces. For the last 11 years the Iraqi people have woken up each morning to find themselves divided into different ethnicities. The invasion and its objectives were implemented, one after another. Baghdad is considered a mixture of people, although Southern Iraqis feel it’s dangerous to visit Baghdad. They are psychologically already divided. There are a lot of people outside of Iraq that want to see Iraq broken into a number of pieces. The goal is to fragment and dismember the country into smaller pieces. To find out more about Sami’s organization, please visit http://reconciliationproject.org/. 

To listen to the entire interview, CLICK HERE or visit http://wsradio.com/070314-reviewing-conflict-iran-middle-east/.

Segment 1: Conflict, Rebellion and Corruption.  On this edition of The Doug Noll Show we are speaking with anthropologist and author Christopher Duncan. Dr. Duncan, a graduate of Yale University, is currently a professor of Religious and Global Studies at Arizona State University. Christopher took his first cultural anthropology class as an undergraduate. In grad school he had the goal of working with indigenous healers in Guatemala but ultimately decided to study Indonesia. Indonesia has been a hotbed of conflict for a long time. In general Christopher thinks the cause of this conflict is due to the fact that Indonesia is an incredibly diverse country with between 400-800 different language groups and 5 major religions. Additionally, at the turn of century Indonesia’s very long and powerful iron fist dictatorship fell. Once the dictator’s grip was loosened, conflict and rebellions and corruption began to surface.

Segment 2: A Religious State.  Halmahera was Christopher’s first research site. His initial research project was to find a particular forest-dwelling hunting and gathering community that lived in the interior area of Halmahera and live with and study them.

Christopher tells us that there has been a long-standing Indonesian government policy to force people to convert to one of the world’s large religious groups (Muslim or Christianity). The compromise: Indonesia decided that rather than having a state religion, they would be a religious state. After 1965 when the military dictatorship came into power, in order for an Indonesian to function in society, they needed an ID card. To get an ID card, they had to have a religion, which is listed on the ID card. They are unable to send their kids to school, vote, register their land, etc. unless they had an ID card with a religion listed.

Segment 3: North Maluku.  In North Maluku there was what Christopher called a Communal Conflict. It ended in a stalemate. Each side took over the areas they were able to take over and everyone was pushed into their corner. There was a large massacre in a church where 20+ people were killed, and after that the Indonesian government declared a state of energy. The Indonesian government did not do any formal peacemaking programs in North Maluku. It fell upon local communities to make peace and reconnect with their neighbors and enemies.

Segment 4:  Violence and Vengeance.  Christopher’s book, Violence and Vengeance, is about the way people are remembering the various conflicts in Indonesia. There’s a landscape dotted with monuments dedicated to religious conflict. He believes the biggest issue was the breakdown of the security in the country. If the security apparatus would’ve been a bit more robust, the conflicts might have been avoided. To find out more about Dr. Christopher Duncan, please visit https://webapp4.asu.edu/directory/person/853633.

CLICK HERE to listen to the entire interview.

Segment 1: Holism and Cross-Cultural Comparison.  Our guest on this edition of The Doug Noll Show is Dr. Brian Ferguson. Dr. Ferguson is a Professor of Anthropology at Rutgers University and is an expert on war within the context of Anthropology. Brian is of the age that he was up for the draft to Vietnam. He was opposed to the war but also came to understand that he didn’t know why we were even in the Vietnam War, which prompted him to study it for his graduate degree.

Cultural Anthropology means different things to different people. Brian learned that the hallmark of anthropology were the two pillars of Holism and Cross-Cultural Comparison. Holism is the belief that the different aspects of a society all fit together to form a whole. To understand one aspect of a community you need to understand the whole picture, as they are all parts of an integrated whole. Cross Cultural comparison means you look at a great number of societies to understand a particular society.

Segment 2: War Has an Origin.  There is a theory that says throughout humanity’s past, war has been ubiquitous. This is not true. In fact, anthropologists can see when they look at the total archeological record (instead of cherry-picking certain times and places) that war has an origin. At some point in a society’s history, war appears. Usually it’s after the onset of agriculture. From then on, war does not go away.

Brian has always opted for a minimal definition of war. His definition involves a collection of people who engage in an activity against another collection of people that involves killing. 

Segment 3: Moral Values to Make War Acceptable.  The neurological aspect of war and cooperation is something that Brian has studied. He does not believe that war is innate in our nature. Most human decision-making is not rational; it’s emotional. This provides content as to why we quickly escalate into conflicts. In some cultures, not only is war not viewed as “bad”, but it’s also an essential part of maintaining the balance of society and allowing young men to become and be perceives as adults. Whoever makes the decision to fight looks at the practical outcome of fighting or not fighting. As they convince others to go to war and try to rationalize to themselves the need for war, they will connect their own self-interests to the highest values and morals within their culture (revenge, democracy, etc.). As people make their decisions to go to war, they evoke their moral values to make it an acceptable practice.

Segment 4: Leaders and War.  Brian tells us that leaders often favor war because war often favors leaders. From tribal societies to ancient states to modern societies, leaders often find their own interest being elevated by heightened conflict and war with others. When there is deadly conflict, leaders are usually elevated. In fact, working for peace actually takes more strength than going to war. It’s all about the leadership. To read more about Brian, visit his bio: http://www.ncas.rutgers.edu/r-brian-ferguson.

To listen to the entire interview, please CLICK HERE.

 

Segment 1: The Military Creates Wars.  On this edition of The Doug Noll Show we are speaking with David Swanson, author, journalist and radio host. David is working to organize a movement to end all war (worldbeyondwar.org). David started in journalism and a press secretary in 2004, and from 2005 onward he’s been organizing peace organizations. Similar to a lot of children in the United States, he was brought up being told he should use words instead of fists, but as a young adult he realized we as a society put a tremendous amount of energy fighting. When you’re raised with such contraction, you either pretend it’s not there or you decide to support one side or the other.

We spend more on recruitment into the military than we do on education. Why is this fact not catching people’s attention? When you look at polls you have a strong majority saying we should have never invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. Nobody wants a new war, either. But when you ask people if we should stop having war or stop having a military, many people say NO WAY. They think the “evil people will get us.” This thinking spans both the left and the right. We tend to redefine war and tweak the numbers to accomplish a minimization of war deaths. In reality, the military doesn’t protect us from wars; the military creates wars. 

Segment 2: 190 Million Deaths.  During the 20^th century, 190 million deaths can be attributed directly or indirectly war, more than the previous two centuries. One thing people do is argue that proportionately speaking, 190 million isn’t as big a percentage because our population has increased. Even more unfortunately is that 85-90% of the deaths are civilian. The media does not discuss all the civilian deaths. In the U.S. we have a different standard of holding our government accountable. Since we have not had a war in our country in recent history, many people cannot possibly understand what war is really like. 

Segment 3: Planning for War.  David tells us that President Obama has tripled the troops in Afghanistan and is now pledging to keep 5,000 troops for 10 more years. When we put all our resources and efforts into planning for wars, we will end up getting more wars instead of avoiding them. Annual U.S. spending amounts to $1 trillion per year! David thinks we are making an effort to dominate the entire globe.

Segment 4: A Highly Reactive Issue.  There is a myth of redemptive violence that is very much a part of our culture. How do we get people back to peace? First of all, David tells us to get rid of the TV and treat it as a dangerous weapon. TV is misleading. We are trained to believe that the U.S. government intervenes to protect people from evil and the bad guys, but in reality the horrors are usually brought about by the government intervention. It is a highly reactive and non-integrated issue. To find out more about David’s work, visit www.davidswanson.org.

To listen to the entire interview, please CLICK HERE.

 

 

Segment 1: 17,000 Nuclear Weapons.  On this edition of The Doug Noll Show we are speaking with Alice Slater, the New York Director of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation and a member of the Global Council of Abolition 2000. Alice is also the Secretary for Sustainability of the Green Shadow Cabinet and is on the Steering Committee of the World Beyond War Coalition.

Alice was originally a New York school teacher. In 1968 she was watching TV and saw a program about Vietnam becoming a communist country, and on that same night the students at Columbia University were rioting in protest of the war, which terrified her. The very next day she went down to the Democratic Club and joined, and within a month she was the co-chair of Eugene McCarthy’s campaign on Long Island. Once her youngest child went to college she attended to law school and eventually wound up getting involved in the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation. She’s now a United Nations representative working to ban nuclear weapons.

Alice tells us there are 17,000 nuclear weapons on the planet, and 16,000 of them are in U.S. and Russia. A nuclear bomb is made out of the waste of a nuclear reactor. We are currently developing a whole new warhead, and we are not even being threatened. This is a huge waste of time and money. 

Segment 2: Military Industrial Complex.  Eisenhower warned us about the Military Industrial Complex. When Kennedy stopped the atmospheric testing, the testing went underground. Clinton finally stopped the underground testing (the Soviet Union halted it first) but then the industry went into the labs. 

There was a Non-Proliferation Treaty signed in 1970 between 5 nuclear weapon states: U.S., Russia, England, China and France. They promised to give up their nuclear weapons if all the other countries in the world promised not to use them. Everyone signed except India, Pakistan and Israel. The treaty was supposed to expire in 1995, but many non-governmental agencies showed up at the United Nations to lobby the governments to make good on their promise of disarmament. The treaty was renewed indefinitely and the Abolition 2000 Network was formed to draft a nuclear weapons treaty and international renewable energy agency treaty, which is in effect. 

Segment 3: Government is not Going to Save Us.  Iran wants the technology to make nuclear power. There’s been a move to control the proliferation of materials, so a number of countries want to get their hands on the technology. There is no way to handle the waste. Nuclear power is highly technical and there is only a select group of people who know how to handle it. There is no rational reason for engaging in the development of nuclear weapons. What’s in our favor is that the earth can’t take it anymore and people are becoming more aware of the issue. Government is not going to save us. Citizens need to take steps to change this themselves.

Segment 1: War is Not Inevitable.  War is not inevitable. It’s time to think about different possibilities. Alice thinks NATO should be disbanded, as she views it just as an old military alliance. We need to work locally but also look after foreign policy and make sure the policy makers stay on task. To find out more about Alice’s work, please visit www.abolition2000.org.

To listen to the entire interview: 

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

Segment 1: What Animals Can Teach Us.  On this edition of The Doug Noll Show we are speaking with bestselling author Jeffrey Masson. Jeffrey has a PhD in Sanskrit, is a Freudian analyst, and an expert on animal relationships and behavior. His latest book is called Beasts: What Animals Can Teach Us About the Origins of Good and Evil.

When we are engaged in conflict, we think of the other side as evil. However, Jeffrey doesn’t believe we’re born with evilness within us; it is learned. Our species is on the verge of destroying ourselves because of our inability to look with objectivity at other animals who we have treated with disdain as possible teachers. Why is it that orcas, who are very similar to humans (large brains, sociable, top of the food change, live in complex societies) have never killed another orca in the wild? This is the thought that drove Jeffrey to study why humans are so different than other animals.

Segment 2: Us-Them Comparisons.  War is a learned behavior. When you’re killing for food, it’s different than killing for fun. We’re the only animal in all of nature that gets to choose what we eat. Learning how to eat meat was something that allowed our predecessors to spread out on the land and find additional food sources. So what is it about humans that causes evil - such as killing for sport - to occur in us and not other animals? Jeffrey tells us that animals do not make an us-them distinction when it comes to other animals. For example, a dog wants to play with every dog he sees. He doesn’t care what kind of dog it is or what it looks like. There is no language barrier, no racism. Humans are different. We make constant us-them comparisons. We can find the most minor things to differentiate “us” from “them.”

Segment 3: How Can We Unlearn Evil?  If we learned war, we have the capacity to unlearn it. Most animals don’t have the concept of vengeance. Jeffrey thinks it’s important to look at animals as our teachers instead of beasts. We can look at the animal world to learn how to deal with anger and hatred in a different way. If you look at big cats, bears, sharks, etc., they don’t want to fight because they know one of them might get killed. Humans need to learn this concept. Almost all animals, even the ones we consider to be the most ferocious, have learned to avoid conflict of a deadly nature.

Segment 4: Trained By Culture.  Humans, unlike other animals, have huge egos. Animals have a ranking, but they don’t have the sense that it’s my God-given prerogative to treat this other animal this way. We’ve been trained by culture and history to hide vulnerability. Animals don’t kill just for the fun of it; they kill to eat. It’s not driven by vengeance or greed or any type of concept of an enemy.

To learn more about Jeffrey’s work and his latest book, please visit http://www.jeffreymasson.com/.

To listen to the entire interview:

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

Segment 1: Fear-Based Thinking.  On this edition of The Doug Noll Show we speak with Judith Hand: scientist, novelist, futurist, and “peace ethologist.” We're going to learn the biological factors that cause war and what can be done to bring about peace. Judith is an Evolutionary Biologist who studies animal behavior, conflict resolution and social communication. She’s also an Ethologist, meaning she studies human behavior from a biological perspective.

War is not part of our human nature. It is not inevitable and is not an inherited trait. So what is it about our biology that makes us susceptible to war? It’s a cultural invention. Over the past 10,000 years we’ve had dominating societies where the primary decisions were made by men. There are consequences of taking women out of the decision making process in regards to war. Additionally, Judith has found that the fear of scarce resources sometimes drives people to war. It makes us vulnerable to war mongers, who come in and take advantage of that fear thinking. They stir up the fear of lack in order to form an army.

Segment 2: Peace Systems.  Judith believes we can create “peace systems.” For example, the European Union was created because people were tired of the brutality and the waste of WWII. They had a vision and they created the European Union, which is an example of a peace system. Another example is the United States. We decided that we would be united and solve our conflicts by using a court system. When the global community becomes aware that war mongers are causing war, and when they decide to stop being drawn into the scare tactics and instead create a global peace system with treaties, boycotts, and sanctions, peace happens.

So how do we deal with economic dislocation when we stop creating weapons? There is no simple answer as it would affect jobs and big money, but the citizens can start by telling their government that they would “prefer to spend the money in other ways rather than in arms and defense.” The only people who make money off of war is the war industry. It’s bad for business such as Target, Google and Apple to have war.

Segment 3: Less corruption and less war.  There is an emphasis on the role of women in creating a peaceful world, because of their biological make-up. Their child-bearing DNA requires social stability. Although women are aggressive just like men, when it comes to using physical conflict, there is a difference. Biologically, a woman carries a child, takes the risk of childbirth, feeds the child, and protects the child for at least 12 years until they can reproduce on their own. It is a much bigger biological investment than what men invest. Women have been adapted to WANT social stability in their community, where they are raising their children. Therefore women have a lot of traits that help them resolve conflict without violence. Where women are involved in leadership in a society, there’s less corruption and less war.

Segment 4: War is not an inherited trait. So how do we manage population growth, strain on resources and climate change in a non-violent way? Judith says there is an answer: there is a general global hungering to avoid war because our survival instinct has been triggered. There is a sense that what we’ve been doing in the past has to change. War is NOT inevitable. The threats that are coming at us can actually unite us instead of tear us apart. To learn more about Judith’s work please visit http://www.afww.org/.

To listen to the entire interview:

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

Segment 1: Hearing Their Stories.  On this edition of The Doug Noll Show we have the pleasure of speaking with Sarah Blum. Sarah is a decorated Vietnam veteran nurse who served as an operating room nurse in the 12^th Evacuation Hospital in Cu Chi, Vietnam during the height of fighting in 1967. She is also a therapist and the author of Women Under Fire: Abuse in the Military and the sequel, Women Under Fire: PTSD and Healing. Sarah decided that if there was ever a war and she was single, that she would enlist as a military nurse. She talked to a number of different recruiters and ended up enlisting in the Army. She was trained as an operating nurse at Letterman General Hospital in San Francisco, which was her first experience with Veterans from Vietnam. She began hearing their stories and witnessing their pain and healing, which shaped her Vietnam experience.

Segment 2: A Loss of Faith.  Sarah was flown to Vietnam and got her orders to be a nurse at the 67^th Evacuation Hospital, but ended up switching with someone and going to the 12^th Evacuation Hospital in Cu Chi. It was a desolate area. She was allowed a few days to get situated and “make a space for herself” before going to work in the operating room. She quickly became a trauma nurse, as the hospital was situated where all the fighting was taking place and was the largest user of fresh blood. Emotionally it was very disturbing. Over time it had a detrimental effect on her spirituality. She couldn’t believe the Divine would allow something so horrible to take place.

Segment 3: Their Minds and Hearts Were Still Injured.  Sarah eventually experienced a breaking point and in order to get through her tour as a nurse she imagined building a thick brick wall around her heart. She was so successful with the wall that all her memories of the 2^nd half of her tour are not in color; they are in tones of brown.

When she came back to the U.S. she was assigned to a hospital in Tacoma, Washington. She began noticing that the wounds the soldiers experienced were not healing the way they should be healing. She realized the wounds weren’t healing because the soldiers’ minds and hearts were still injured. That was the impetus for her to become psychotherapists. She first became an intuitive healer, and although she didn’t have any formal education, she did the work helped a lot of veterans. Ultimately she went back to school and studied psychotherapy in college and graduate school. She learned about trauma, how it affects people and how to help heal it. 

Segment 4: National Pride and Past Trauma.  In 1996 she became part of an organization called Peace Trees, and traveled to Vietnam to plant indigenous trees on the land that was destroyed by the war. Sarah was the only woman veteran on the trip. They first removed all the live land mines out of the land so the area was safe for Vietnamese children. The goal of the trip was to highlight the devastation done by America, and then plant trees to beautify the area. The area is now a grown forest called Friendship Forest. At the end of the trip she went back to the area she had been stationed in during the war. She visited the tunnels that thousands of Vietnamese people lived in. Although very traumatic, she experienced a tremendous spiritual healing and a heart opening as well. She realized there was no difference between the Vietnamese and the Americans. They both had national pride as well as past trauma from which to heal.

To listen to the entire interview: 

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

Segment 1: The Center of Peace and Liberty

From Afghanistan and Pakistan to Iran and Israel, crises are flourishing today. On this edition of The Doug Noll show we will be talking about the world conflicts that exist today and our own country’s history with war and conflict. Our guest is Dr. Ivan Eland, Senior Fellow and Director of the Center on Peace and Liberty at the Independent Institute (www.independent.org). Ivan spent 15 years working for congress in various capacities before getting into the Think Tank world. The Center on Peace and Liberty studies war, civil liberties and freedom. Through research they have shown that much of the erosion of civil liberties and loss of freedom in the United States’ history has occurred because of war. When our country has a crisis and the government puts anti-liberties regulation in place, it’s very difficult to remove the legislation, even when we have a liberal president in office.

 

Segment 2: A Standard Pattern

The slogan “the best defense is a good offense” is fine for conventional warfare but for terrorism it’s just the opposite. A strong offense with terrorism usually just creates more terrorism. Getting Bin Laden was important because we decimated the al-Qaeda leadership, but Ivan thinks that we should’ve stopped there, instead of going into Somalia, Pakistan and the Arabian Peninsula. We’re making more enemies. There is a standard pattern with terrorists: once they hit their opponent, they hope that the opponent will overreact, which enables them to gain more funding and recruits.

 

Segment 3: The Most Aggressive Country on the Planet

In regards to Syria, whenever a country is in a civil war it’s very chaotic. We don’t have good intelligence in Syria about “who’s radical and who’s not” so if we send heavier weapons to Syria we risk having terrorists get their hands on them. There’s only been one war in U.S. history (the War of 1812) that has not had dire political repercussions. Obama has been cautious to get into war. Romney has pressure to ramp up the volume of weapon sales to the rebels. For most of our history we’ve run a restrained foreign policy, but it started eroding with the Spanish-American war, then we hit WWI and WWII and after WWII we are the king nation and the super power. We became the most aggressive country on the planet. We need to retreat from our overly-interventionist policy. This does not make us isolationists. Every problem in the world does not need to be solved by the U.S. We can’t afford it, financially or otherwise.

 

Segment 4: Imperial Overextension

The policy of intervention has held up thus far because the military industrial complex is alive and well. To cut back on military spending would put a lot of people out of work. So how do we change the course of this country? We need to reconfigure our military into a more defensive profile. Our economy is stagnant but our military budget is growing fast, which brings about imperial overextension.  We could save a lot of money if the defense department did what it was supposed to do and the constitution provided for the common defense instead of the common offense. We have been the most aggressive country in the world by far, and historically war is the central cause of big government.

 

To listen to the complete interview:

 

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

Segment 1: The Irrationality of Nuclear Arms

Is there any rational reason to maintain nuclear weapons? On this edition of The Doug Noll Show we speak with Dr. David Krieger, Founder and President of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, to discuss that question. A respected authority on foreign policy, international relations, peace and disarmament, Dr. Krieger has been at the forefront of the peace movement for 30 years. In 1982 he started his own dream organization: the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation. He was inspired to work for the abolition of nuclear weapons after visiting Hiroshima and Nagasaki and seeing the peace memorial museums --- powerful reminders of what happened in WWII. During his tenure as an International Relations professor he came to believe that the most important issue that confronts society today is the need to abolish nuclear weapons. It affects not only the people living today but future generations far into the future.

 

Dr. Krieger says when we realize nuclear weapons are maintained and strategies are developed totally on the basis of “rationality,” we come to understand that we’re betting the future of the world on the fact that we will continue to have leaders who are rational at all times, under all conditions and all circumstances. It’s a very unlikely proposition.

 

Segment 2: The Deterrence Argument

Is there any rational reason for maintaining nuclear weapons? Deterrence is not rational. Dr. Krieger argues unilaterally that we would be safer if we got rid of our Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles. They are something to target in a time of high conflict or high stress. There are ICBMs in three states in the United States and the Senators of those three states, encouraged by industry and people who profit from those weapon sites, fight to maintain those ICMBs. Between $50 - $70 billion dollars a year are spent on the nuclear weapons industry.

 

Segment 3: Capable of Eliminating a Species

With that $70 billion dollars we could fund housing programs, provide education and Head Start programs for children, fund food programs, etc. Instead we are spending the money on preserving dinosaur-like weapons that can only be used in a manner that kills indiscriminately, violates national law, is immoral at the highest level and terribly costly.

 

If you consider the greatest threat today – terrorism – nuclear weapons have no value of deterrence. There is no “place” or “territory” to retaliate against. We need to convince countries throughout the world that we must eliminate the only weapon system in the world that is capable of eliminating us as a species.

 

Segment 4: The Non-Proliferation Treaty

The Non-Proliferation Treaty, which entered into force in 1970 and extended indefinitely in 1995, leveled the playing field to some extent. The countries who signed the treaty agreed to not acquire new nuclear weapons and to pursue disarmament, but there are still over 19,000 nuclear weapons in the world. Four countries did not sign the treaty: Isreal, India, Pakistan and North Korea. They don’t consider themselves bound by its provisions.

 

To listen to the entire interview:

  

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4