Animals and the Origins of Good and Evil

Segment 1: What Animals Can Teach Us.  On this edition of The Doug Noll Show we are speaking with bestselling author Jeffrey Masson. Jeffrey has a PhD in Sanskrit, is a Freudian analyst, and an expert on animal relationships and behavior. His latest book is called Beasts: What Animals Can Teach Us About the Origins of Good and Evil.

When we are engaged in conflict, we think of the other side as evil. However, Jeffrey doesn’t believe we’re born with evilness within us; it is learned. Our species is on the verge of destroying ourselves because of our inability to look with objectivity at other animals who we have treated with disdain as possible teachers. Why is it that orcas, who are very similar to humans (large brains, sociable, top of the food change, live in complex societies) have never killed another orca in the wild? This is the thought that drove Jeffrey to study why humans are so different than other animals.

Segment 2: Us-Them Comparisons.  War is a learned behavior. When you’re killing for food, it’s different than killing for fun. We’re the only animal in all of nature that gets to choose what we eat. Learning how to eat meat was something that allowed our predecessors to spread out on the land and find additional food sources. So what is it about humans that causes evil - such as killing for sport - to occur in us and not other animals? Jeffrey tells us that animals do not make an us-them distinction when it comes to other animals. For example, a dog wants to play with every dog he sees. He doesn’t care what kind of dog it is or what it looks like. There is no language barrier, no racism. Humans are different. We make constant us-them comparisons. We can find the most minor things to differentiate “us” from “them.”

Segment 3: How Can We Unlearn Evil?  If we learned war, we have the capacity to unlearn it. Most animals don’t have the concept of vengeance. Jeffrey thinks it’s important to look at animals as our teachers instead of beasts. We can look at the animal world to learn how to deal with anger and hatred in a different way. If you look at big cats, bears, sharks, etc., they don’t want to fight because they know one of them might get killed. Humans need to learn this concept. Almost all animals, even the ones we consider to be the most ferocious, have learned to avoid conflict of a deadly nature.

Segment 4: Trained By Culture.  Humans, unlike other animals, have huge egos. Animals have a ranking, but they don’t have the sense that it’s my God-given prerogative to treat this other animal this way. We’ve been trained by culture and history to hide vulnerability. Animals don’t kill just for the fun of it; they kill to eat. It’s not driven by vengeance or greed or any type of concept of an enemy.

To learn more about Jeffrey’s work and his latest book, please visit http://www.jeffreymasson.com/.

To listen to the entire interview:

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4